Just some thoughts I wanted to mention

[Ken McLaren]

In the past I have been critical of the Commercial guys...Many reasons for this, price, lack of innovation in regards to new types of sims, etc...

This has not necessarily been fair on my part, because its not the full story...after speaking with many of the developers from these companies, I have found a really strong similarity between our goals, and what they would be doing if given the option.

Lack of innovation, in terms of new original heads...I'm sure inside the code of all of them(Commercial sims) there is some very innovative techniques, there would have to be. So, why is this, some of the greatest developers in the world working on these things and we get the same stuff over and over and over again? ...YOU!

It is not the developers, its not the companies, its not their marketing people (Although I would fire every one of them, marketing people that is), it is you, the public that drives these innovations...or more properly lack of innovations. So, what I'm wondering is why do you guys keep putting your cash out for the same thing over and over again, why are you not demanding innovation and a new original product....

Its like this, The beatles recorded Hey Jude(The original), then Band X records it, you buy it, then Band Y records it, you buy it, then Band C records it, you buy it....Then there is a discussion on whether Band C's version is better than Band Y's? Someone adjusts their Stereo EQ a little different on Band X's version of it, and now Band X is better than the Beatles? What is with that?

Its Same thing with Plexis, Fenders, Vox, etc.

Its one thing for me to sit here and talk about innovation, I don't have the same rules applied to me that my counterparts do...They have "The Man" to work for and if "The Man" says we're making another plexi, or we're making another Bassman, or we're making another JCM, then thats what they do..."The Man" is dollar driven, but first and foremost these developers are engineers, and by virtue of that fact, they are natural innovators. I would really love to see what these guys are capable of, my guess is they ALL have the ability to turn the sim world upside down! Of that one can be sure!

I am almost positive that given the option to try something new, or, keep releasing the same types of plugs, these developers would much rather be innovating. Of course I cannot speak for them, and nor would I presume to, I am just making an observation after speaking with some of them.

Its the public(you guys) that drive the developments, as long as you keep asking for the same stuff over and over again, we will keep seeing yet another copy of a Fender, or Plexi, or, Boogie, etc., etc., etc., ad nauseum.
I am not trying to say that ABG are the great innovators of the world, We do try to be original, whether we hit our mark or not...Who knows hopefully we do.

I'm just saying that the SIM world would be a whole lot more interesting if some of these "big guys" started to get involved with some new ways of looking at SIM technology. Hell, create a simple head, release it as freeware, 1)Your supporters will back you, and 2) you may even gain some new supporters...3) at the very least you would be helping to forward an industry that we all need to support and move forward in. There is more positives than negatives..

So, IK, NI, PEAVEY, TH1, (Anyone i forgot, sorry, add yourself to the list)...
Join the party...get an original freeware head out here...This is not a challenge, just a request...Give your developers some free reign for a bit...I am positive they are dying to show the world what they can do...These guys have had to put up with us freeware guys and never get the chance to show their CREATIVE ORIGINAL Head design talents...Let us know here if you will participate...We'll ALL be waiting for a reply from each of you..Just a head no cabs, no effects, just an original head...

To the public....the question is, what makes your opinion of copy SIMS more strong than an original Computer amp...
KM

[Ken McLaren]

Also, I forgot to mention....This is going to be the ABG contribution to this thread..

[GermanFafian]

That's why 13 yrs ago I went to a luthier to build me my guitar and now build them myself
Everyone can have a Marshall but only I have a Paulacaster

[Ken McLaren]

Yep..

[atalwar]

Well at companies,much is $$$$ ridden.
are the developers at the companies capable?, u bet.
i wouldn't be surprised if they already have something special built.
but they wouldn't release that unless they see market is ready for it or a serious competition.

when u talk about a company it' usually ain't the developers call, they do what they are asked for not what they are capable of unless it's a starter or 1 man army, or driven by passion rather than anything else.

Today everybody says line6 (or some other company) sux , if you flashback few years well they didn't as much when you didn't have so much to compare , except for real amps and poor cpu's.

this is an evolution thing, either everyone evloves or no one does, some do break the rules but that is the extent of it.

look at the prices of hdd,s for example,
today i can buy a good rigged i7, much cheaper compared to what if paid for my state of the art 2.1 gig 5400 rpm drive back in the day.

Users demands grew, consumer disks got bigger and faster and cheaper (though for some quality is an open discussion).

it's not much different in other segments.

my 2.06 cents (incl taxes).

[Ken McLaren]

Agreed, but I also believe these other developers are passionate about what they do to..

KM

[smire]

Good post Ken...I would have to agree with all of that. No doubt. The problem with almost all commercial amp modeling packages is the lack of innovation. Hell, if it was just a matter of adding amp models, ReValver could be in version 14 by now.

There are only two points where I would have to disagree:

1.) Lumping Peavey in with NI and IK is a little off base. In ReValver, Peavey is modeling amplifiers that WE designed and manufacture. We have been making amplifiers for over 40 years. That's our gig. If anyone else making amp sims knows more about amps than Hartley Peavey, I would like to meet them. We do have other sims in ReValver, but they are a bonus, people expect certain models.

2.) Don't fire all of the marketing people. I'm in marketing. That would suck. Bad.

Scott Mire
Marketing Director
Peavey Electronics

[gaspedal]

If it is okay to ask "the man" to release free amp models, then it follows that it is okay to ask "free amper's" to release source code. You want innovation, then let's see some source code. If your not for profit then you should be more than willing. Stallman didn't have a problem. His idea inspired so much innovation that you can run a computer on his inspiration and never purchase a single line of code.

While I have the ear of Peavey. When it really comes down to it, all (tube) amps are just a variation on the Fender original design. That being said there are some stand outs: Marshall (Plexi, JMP, 2203), Mesa (MK II - IV), and yes Peavey (5150 aka 6505). If you don't include Fender, Marshall (I think Paevey calls this a Windsor), and Mesa you have less than 1/4 the variations that the paying public expect to see. So let's get real, a harmonizer is an extra, the standard amps are essential. What concerns me is that Revalver is an outstanding product owned by a company whose primary focus is selling hardware. Revalver hasn't seen a major release since June 2008 (i know you officially released in august). That's about 18 months with not so much as an official teaser beyond unoffical speculation. So I'm asking you to throw down. If your really in the software biz then when can we expect the next release? if your truly in the software biz then give us, the folks who paid for your software, a peak under the hood. Please don't make the standard software excuses, I've heard and even used most of them. Every release starts with a target set of features and an estimated completion date. If you try and avoid feature creep then you can usually come within a few months of the original completion date (providing the canned sugar and caffine is free!!) If after 18 months you no information you can share then I must wonder how committed your are to the software biz.

PS I bought a Vypyr 60. Probably the best modeler amp I have ever played. Took it back because it is not as portable as my laptop and DI. I'm a hobby musician, software is perfect for me!

PPS Holy crap!! Just had revelation. If I'm right I want a gold star. Line 6, NI, IK, and Digidesign have their own DI. Your working on a DI to be released at the same time as ReValver IV. Only makes sense. It's the most logical way to sell hardware and software in harmony. Why just sell software, when you can sell hardware and software. Everyone who uses software needs a DI so why not sell them a Peavey DI. If you absolutely need to plug into an amp then Peavey DI to the rescue once again.

[Ken McLaren]

LOL...Scott, I can always count on a smile when around you guys, Yeah you're right...You guys do make your own models of your own heads, so, I do have to agree with you, they do count as original works...So, yeah you are not in the same category...

Michael...

I just Know that Michael has some pretty amazing original ideas up his sleeve. He is without a doubt one of the greats in this industry and I am pretty sure I can speak for everyone here at GAM in saying that we would all love to see something from him as well...

So, Hartley, Michael, and Scott,...You guys gonna join US on releasing a freeware head to the great community here at GAM? These guys have been staunch Revalver supporters forever and if any community deserves it, these people do. In fact as you already know they support this technology fully, all the modellers, NI, IK, Studio Devil, TH1 they all have places here at this community, and if nothing else, it'll make you feel good, kinda like a warm fuzzy blanket on a cold winter day..Not that you guys ever get cold winter days, but if you did, believe me you'd want a warm fuzzy blanket..

Oh and the crack about firing the marketing people...HAHA I forgot that was your title, so just the bad marketing people, I wouldn't fire you...

Now hopefully IK NI, and the others join us too!


KM

[Ken McLaren]

Gaspedal...You always get a gold star from me...

I just wanted to say something further to your comments about the Revalver updates...One thing to remember is that RTAS also came out, and I can tell you that is not a trivial simple development. I was amazed at how fast they got through it. So, really hats off for that...

Commitment...I don't believe there is any commitment issues, Besides I have already stated that if Hartley ever wants to get rid of Revalver, Michael, Scott, and Fred, can always come and live with G-SPOT and Me at Acme...


Now about me releasing my source code...Does a bear shit in a toilet?
KM

[gaspedal]

KM. I thought the open source comment would give you a chuckle.

As for commitment. I have no doubt of the commitment of the programers. What I do question is the business commitment. I think Peavey bought the software so they can sell hardware. Guess we'll see.

[flmason]

I think the short answer to your final question is this...

The golden age of rock guitar used all the amps being simulated. What folks want is the ability to plug in and sound like Track X on Great Album Y with Famous Guitar God Z...

Even moreso, they want the sound they "think" a Marshall, Fender, Vox, etc. has based on those tracks. (Losing sight all the while that studio trickery was used to create a lot of those tracks as well...)

I know I ended up buying a lot of equipment in the 70's and 80's chasing the elusive "sound on the record" started with a Lab Series L-7 amp and before it was over had a brace of Marshall, Fender and Ampegs and a floor full of stomps...

Then along came LA Metal and rack mount... AHA I thought... those rackmount processors starting with the ADA MP-1... That's the secret! Then studio guys have digital effects processors and got them before the rest of us...

So the amp sim phenomenon has always puzzled me a little as the amps that are simulated are the very ones we were running away from during the rack mount years...

But be that as it may, the era of the Guitar God, and most of the interviews from that time extoll the values of Marshall 1959's and 2203's, Fender this that and the other, etc. etc.

Never mind the floor full of stomps, the SM57 in the grille, the double tracking, EQ, etc. etc. etc. LOL!

In short though, what the average consumer really wants, IMHO is to plug in and instantly sound and get a recording that sounds "pro".

As I've found since I first started back into this stuff after discovering Cubase and reading of Amp Farm some years ago (believing that the pros were now doing it all in the box) is again... It ain't always easy to get "the sound on the record".

Deja Vu all over again...

LOL!

[Matthias King]

I'd love to see the commercial ampsim developers release a free original amp head or combo or whatever the case. Something that is not based on one particular existing hardware amp, or any existing hardware amp for that matter. It would be very interesting to see and hear what they would come up with.

Excellent idea Ken, and I look forward to seeing what happens. Also, I'm looking forward to Preampus Catharsis. Is Ryan making a custom impulse for it, or is it being designed with the seemingly legendary s-highpres impulse in mind?

[Ken McLaren]

Gaspedal...I thought bear poop comment would get a chuckle too...

flmason...Everyone chased all those sounds, me included, but, here is the funny thing, all we needed was a Rangemaster...That is the hidden secret. A dead and lifeless amp springs to life with one of them hooked up...You know what I'm gonna release our treble master here as part of this thread too..
KM

[Jind]

Ken - I've been one of those that would like something different, something original, something that does not have as it's basis in the amps of the big manufacturers.

I always think of the people involved in sound design utilizing something as simple as a waveform. They take that waveform and turn it into something that blows you away. Have you ever listened to a synth or preset that just knocks your socks off and wonder how they did that. The crafted an original sound that may evolve over time, it may have an emotional effect upon the listener, it may take you places in your mind, it may evoke a memory that you had long forgotten. It can be a magical musical moment. My problem with amp simulation is that it is "simulation", not "creation" in many cases - too many folks trying to copy what has already been done because every guitarist wants to sound like someone else instead of crafting their own tone.

I think a change in mindset from simulation to creation needs to occur for this to change. Yes, the building blocks of amplification are pretty common, but what we throw at that basis is where the change occurs. I'm pretty sure that you think this way as well because when I look over your product line, over some of the original ideas you/your team have had, you are looking at ways of taking that basic tone generation machine called the simulation and crafting it into something different. It's the signal processing that occurs after that basic waveform that creates the magic to me.

I have perhaps rambled on and since I am in no way a developer I may not understand what goes into this, but I want to see magic occur in my music, I want to be blown away not with my ability to sound just like someone else, but with original ideas and original sounds/tones. There is a place for duplication, for "simulation", but there also needs to be room in this market/development space for the creative process of sound creation since music is more than just a certain genres "tone" or stylistic commonalities. Music is an art form and so should the means by which we craft it be.

As always, thanks for the great work you and your team do - I see you as a kindred spirit in this art form of music, you want to hear and see something different than what has been done, you want a new way of thinking.

Keep it up.

[Ken McLaren]

Thanks Mathias, Like I say its one thing for me to criticize these great developers for lack of innovation, quite another if I were them. If I were them, I would be doing the same thing they are because of the corporate mindset and their "controllers" which is the public. These companies respond to you, not anything else.

There is nothing wrong with doing the status quo, the same thing over and over again, if thats what the public wants. But really, until the public knows the possibilities, they can't make an informed decision on what they want. So, I blame us the developers for not showing the public all the amazing possibilities that are available... Possibilities that are available right now. This is not one of those, when processors get better we can do it, we can do this right now with existing technology..So, why aren't we? I mean really in 100 years, what will we be using for guitar amps? Does anyone truly believe that we will still only have tube amps? That some manufacturer will still be making a living producing only tubes? Come on guys...thats not real...Not gonna happen. So, lets start embracing this technology that we all love to hate, and hate to love and start producing some world class new innovations in guitar and bass technology...

You know one thought I have been trying to work on is in the mixing world...What if your head could read whats going on sonically around it, and, automatically adjust itself to fit perfectly in the mix? Not in level but in tone. What if it could anticipate a cymbal strike thats coming and adjust itself to eliminate the washout? What if your tone could automatically adjust to eliminate boom sounds you get on specific chords, like when you chug an A#, the head automatically lowers the 120 hz area...This is all relatively simple stuff to do...Why does ABG have to be one of the only companies that is doing this type of engineering? For us in the modeling world to move forward, it has to be a united front, not just one company can do this, We need the guys from NI, IK, Peavey, Studio Devil, TH1, all of them need to be creating and producing innovative new approaches to this technology, and all of them have the talent to do this. I'm not talking about new ways to make a cabinet sound better, or mundane tonal techniques, but real new innovation...

I was surprised that the guitar world was not demanding this, but the more I looked into this and the marketing of it, the more I realized the public just does not know what is possible because they have never been told..Well, don't look to the next Mesa, look to the next innovation, sure we can get it to sound close to a mesa, but, at the end of the day, its not a MESA, it is a computer amp, doing very easily done stuff, lets make it do more, because it can...

So, I am still waiting for a response from the other companies, Scott and Peavey have already responded, good on them, I'm hoping for an official announcement from them soon. What can be said about Hartley's company, they have always been innovative in their approach to things, especially in manufacturing.

There needs to be a lot more posts to this thread though...Thats for sure..
KM

[Ken McLaren]

Thanks Jind, Originality is always rewarded in some way..
That change in mindset cannot be done with just one company, It has to be done with most if not all of them. I can see a day where people don't just look forward to seeing what new sims are added to the latest release, But instead what new cool stuff will this thing do? We need to get to that mindset...

From a corporate standpoint....You would think the motivation would be in the fact that your amp sim is the only one in the world that has a particular function? Stop the competition on who has the best Marshall Clone, and move it to who has the greatest innovations... Thats when we'll begin to see true innovation happen, when the corporate types begin to see the usefulness of being Original..which...Happens to be our slogan...

KM

[bill0287]

I don't understand this - why worry about what these other companies are doing ?

BE the innovator...BE the standard setter...BE the industry leader in raising the bar... simply leave every one else in the dust...

Let these other guys rest on their laurels with stagnant releases that don't see upgrades to their products for 12 months or more...how long since ReValver MKIII, AMP2, Eleven, etc. had their last updates ?

I am getting (IMHO) great results out of the freeware amps on this site - if I didn't already own commercial sims, I wouldn't even need them...

[Ken McLaren]

Well, the vast majority of users really only take these sims for real if you are charging for them, especially if you are trying something new. So, a little support from the industry as a whole would be good...
KM

[bill0287]

perhaps...but I would hope more people would choose with their ears instead.

Getting the word out is the freeware developers biggest challenge, since you might not want to spend big bucks on a marketing campaign for something that is free. But once that word gets out - look out (ala linux)

As a consumer, what I expect from commercial companies is: strong customer support, frequent and inexpensive (if not free) updates, and superior quality. I don't expect those things from freeware developers...but if I get them...all the better for everyone

p.s. don't get me wrong... I would love it if all the companies started releasing free stuff, heck, it would be nice if all software were free, but at the end of the day it's a business and people can charge money if they want to.

[Ken McLaren]

I guess really what I'm looking to do is find a way that these developers can release some innovative stuff, without being judged too harshly. Like in no way should these heads be construed as their commercial products, its really just a way for them to test some new techniques, show the public what is possible, and, in fact get a better read on what may be a popular item...Which can then be moved into full production if it is well accepted. So, this is not to get them to start releasing freeware, they are commercial entities, but, that does not mean that they should not have a more public platform on which to grow...

KM

[GermanFafian]

:The culprit of the issue at hand is that most players are followers and hobbyists who just want to plug in and play.
They want something that sounds familiar instead of innovative. They want to "buy pre-made" whether it is sims, sounds or loops and companies cater to these kind of people.

Look at it as the equivalent of Synth programmers and patches. I use patches as a mean to an end, but many are useful for certain things and a spring board but that does not stop people from creating excelent new sounding stuff for the rest os tweakers out there.

Guitar players have to get out of our tried and true formulas and experiment a bit more with sounds. Then the developers can get more experimental too but if there is no one doing the experimental work with which guitar players can start getting their feet wet. Who's going to do it?

It's a Moebius strip road going in eternal circles.

[Ken McLaren]

Yes it is, I totally agree, thats why I wanted to start this thread..I cannot state strongly enough, this is not a challenge to all the other companies, but more a platform for them to show off some experimental ideas. My hope is that it gets the ball rolling so to speak..

Also German, I deleted your email today by accident, can you please re-send it..
KM

[Nikko]

Ken I think you have a wonderful idea here. It would be nice to see the commercial companies follow through on it, demonstrating a "do it for the team" attitude, team being all of us guitar-playing ampsim enthusiasts.

And I'll believe it'll happen when I actually see it happen....

I don't think the major commercial players in this market can be motivated to do something, anything, unless it involves great heaping piles of cash.... ....and with the economy the way it is, unemployment at near-record levels, many people earning less than they did 10 years ago.... man, I don't want to sound bleak but that's the way I've seen things lately and I don't see it getting better any time soon..... Most people I know aren't attempting to secure themselves for the future, they're struggling to make ends meet for NOW.

As far as innovation goes, when was the last time someone came up with something truly musically different, memorable and influential that will stand the test of time? Something really unique? Not a LOT of that going around.... Like you said, the general public needs to be SHOWN the possibilities and capabilities before they can possibly know for what they should ask.

You've shown the ability to think outside the box in your approach to programming with musicality in mind, not just trying to RE-create what's been done before. I just hope some others will follow that example or the status quo will not evolve any time soon.

[Ken McLaren]

Thanks Dude...If nothing else, maybe we'll just see some of their developers take on this task as a passion project. They may never get permission from their respective companies to release under their name, so, you may see some new names on the development scene happen around here..It actually does not matter whether they release under their company names, we don't really care about that, we only care about the innovation. A rose by any other name is still a rose.

However, TBH the response from these commercial guys has left me Puzzled...I thought for sure they would not be interested, but, in truth, I have got a very strong response from them...Not all, still waiting to hear back from some, but, hell, you guys deserves this, you're all loyal customers and enthusiasts in this area...Why the hell not?

KM