Mr. Aradaz, an idea...

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Alu
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Mr. Aradaz, an idea...

Postby Alu » Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:07 am

So, I know you're actually working on a new cab-simulation plugin, impulse based, so I would like to give you an idea about a cool feature you could insert into it...
Yesterday I was thinking about a method to easily emulate the phase cancellation of two mics placed in front of the same cab...
Phase cancellation is not always a bad thing, a lot of sound engineers use it (sometimes without knowing this) to get killer tones out of thier amps/cabs.
Phase cancellation is caused by a little delay between the two signals being captured by the mics when they're at different distances from the speaker, so I could easily use a plugin like Voxengo Pristine Space which features a "delay" parameter. So it seems that I already have the chance to create phase cancellation using that plugin... what's the problem? The fact that the minimum amount of delay I can set is 1 millisecond.
Someone could think that 1 millisecond of delay is a really short time, so it's fine to recreate phase cancellation of two mics with, for example, 1cm of difference in their distance from the cab...
Well, no...
The speed of sound is measured at about 332m/s in the air, so the sound wave moves of 332m/s * 0.001s = 0.332 m (33.2 cm) every millisecond...
This means that I can emulate a minimum of 33.2cm of distance between the mics from the cab... If I want to have the phase cancellation generated by a difference of, let's say, 3cm, I'm fucked... bad thing, isn't it?
Here is the simple idea...
Why not using a delay function based on the number of samples captured by the AD converter, instead of milliseconds? I believe that a plugin that can actually delay a signal of a certain number of samples already exists (I haven't found it yet, but the idea is really simple/stupid, so someone could have created a plugin with that feature... if you know one let me know cause I need it) but would be really cool to have such a feature in your upcoming impulse based cab sim!
90% of musical software users are running their hosts at 44100Hz, this means a sample every 1/44100 s = 0.0000226 s = 0.0226 milliseconds.
As I stated above, the sound wave moves of 332m/s * 0.0000226s = 0.0075m every sample (7,5 mm). This means that using a sample based delay I can emulate a minimum of 7.5 mm of distance between the two mics... that's way better than using milliseconds, since it's about 44 times more accurate!
I think that is really easy to implement too, since you should just keep in memory a certain number of samples depending on the amount of distance setted by the user (let's say a maximum of 40 samples, so 30 cm of difference, it's more than enough)...
I've tried to recreate phase cancellation manually moving a wave of 1 or 2 or 3 samples using Audacity, and the results were pretty cool, way better than Voxengo Pristine Space! A lot of fizzyness was being killed during the process and the resulting sound had more lows too!

Create a plugin that can load 2 different impulses from my hardisk (cause I'm pretty sure you're gonna make it in the future), can set the % of balance between the impulses (already implemented on your first cabsim) and with a function to emulate the mic distance from the cab creating phase cancellation and it's gonna be the best cab simulation ever made so far...
What do you think?
Would it be possible to delay the signal of a shorter time than a sample time? I'm a bit rusted about physics/digital stuff, so I'm not sure about this, but I would say yes as long as your pc can handle it...

Sorry for the blatant explanation, I'm sure you already knew all these things I've written, but I would like to make all the users understand and maybe have their opinions too and discuss about this...

Think about it!
Thanks!
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Re: Mr. Aradaz, an idea...

Postby Pot » Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:22 am

Very interesting and productive post 8)

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Re: Mr. Aradaz, an idea...

Postby strangedogs » Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:56 am

also - MAKE A MAC VERSION so the "rest of us" Window's Haters can play with it too!
"well boys there's 1 more thing you're gonna need to make it in Rock & Roll besides all those Guitars and Amps and Drums and stuff - it's called A SONG..."

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Re: Mr. Aradaz, an idea...

Postby Cyaoeu » Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:23 pm

Doesn't http://www.voxengo.com/product/sounddelay/ work with samples?
Anyway, it's a cool idea.

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Alu
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Re: Mr. Aradaz, an idea...

Postby Alu » Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:41 pm

Cyaoeu wrote:Doesn't http://www.voxengo.com/product/sounddelay/ work with samples?
Anyway, it's a cool idea.

Great man! It's free! Thank you very much for the heads up, I was searching for something simple like that! Gonna try it asap!
It will come handy while waiting for the Aradaz new cab sim! 8)
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Official Site | Facebook Page
Released Plug-Ins: NRR-1 | TS-999 SubScreamer | The Anvil | SHB-1 | PTEq-1a | TSB-1 Tyrant Screamer | TPA-1 | NadIR | Emissary
Guitars: LTD Deluxe M-1000 | Ibanez MTM2 (D-Sonic + Air Norton)
Soundcard: M-Audio Profire 610
Monitors: ESI nEar 08 eXperience | AKG K141 Studio Headphones
Studio Software: Cubase 6 | Overloud BREVERB | PSP sQuad | Steven Slate Drums 3.5 Platinum | Toontrack SD2.0 | URS Channel Strip Pro | VescoFx Provoker | Voxengo Curve Eq | Voxengo Elephant 3
Studio Productions: Energy Of The Elements - Heavenly Force (EP, 2009) | Injury Broadcast - Mosh Test Dummies (EP, 2010) | Subhuman - Promo 2011 | Spreadin' Fear - Mankind (FL, 2012)

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Re: Mr. Aradaz, an idea...

Postby mauro_p » Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:36 pm

Fucking great idea Alu, really. Brilliant. God damn, never thought it that way.
What I would love is the ability to partially isolate a certain impulse's frequency range... Say first impulse's mids, second impulse's high mids, third impulse's lows...
It's so good to have guys making this kind of stuff, I salut you Arie, :salut:
Cheers :cheers:
Mauro

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Re: Mr. Aradaz, an idea...

Postby sexan » Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:23 pm

what about programming in cuda?

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aradaz
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Re: Mr. Aradaz, an idea...

Postby aradaz » Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:01 am

Great Idea Alu, I never think about delay.

But, if we want to make it more real, we have to use 4 IR's for one cabinet.
I attached the pics below

Impulse Capture.png

A,B,C,D are the mic placements for capturing the IRs.
The distance between A and C or B and D should be 30 cm.

If we have those 4 IRs, we could simulate all the mic placements on the blue area (see the pic).

So there will be 2 important parameters for 1 cab which are
1. mic position (center -> edge)
2. mic distance ( 0 -> 30 cm), will be delayed from 0 to 40 samples at 44100 sample rate

Do anyone have the impulses?
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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Alu
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Re: Mr. Aradaz, an idea...

Postby Alu » Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:36 am

Yeah, that's a cool thing... some kind of morphing, isn't it? The mic on the center of that area should sound like the blending of 25% of each impulse if I've understood the concept... so you can emulate all the impulses in between the 4. Great!

Now, if only I had a cab... :(

Anyway, I've tested Voxengo Sound Delay yesterday, and I must say that when apply a delay of 5-6-... and more samples, the tone become too much fucked up (kinda heavily low-pass filtered), so I think that an option to use a maximum of 4 samples delay, is enough.
Voxengo can apply a delay of 0.0x ms, so a time based delay for times shorter than a sample time seems to be possible... that is going to be more accurate (3,3mm), than the sample delay, not sample-rate dependant and it should be even easier to implement (if a "wait();" function exists :lol: )
Image
Official Site | Facebook Page
Released Plug-Ins: NRR-1 | TS-999 SubScreamer | The Anvil | SHB-1 | PTEq-1a | TSB-1 Tyrant Screamer | TPA-1 | NadIR | Emissary
Guitars: LTD Deluxe M-1000 | Ibanez MTM2 (D-Sonic + Air Norton)
Soundcard: M-Audio Profire 610
Monitors: ESI nEar 08 eXperience | AKG K141 Studio Headphones
Studio Software: Cubase 6 | Overloud BREVERB | PSP sQuad | Steven Slate Drums 3.5 Platinum | Toontrack SD2.0 | URS Channel Strip Pro | VescoFx Provoker | Voxengo Curve Eq | Voxengo Elephant 3
Studio Productions: Energy Of The Elements - Heavenly Force (EP, 2009) | Injury Broadcast - Mosh Test Dummies (EP, 2010) | Subhuman - Promo 2011 | Spreadin' Fear - Mankind (FL, 2012)


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